Is There Any Segment That American Cars Can't Compete In?

"pauljones" (pauljones) 08/05/2013 at 15:59 • Filed to: AmericanCars, TheGuessWhoFailed

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Once upon a time, American cars were more often than not considered to be at the bottom of their respective segments. And that "once upon a time" wasn't that long ago. Now, it seems, that American cars have come back, and come back with an absolute vengeance. These days, whenever I'm thinking about what I'd like my next car to be, regardless of the segment that I'm thinking about, an American car winds up coming out on top. Put simply, in nearly every category of car that you would care to think of (barring uber-luxury cars like Bentley and Rolls-Royce), there is an American offering that is as good or better than anything else in the segment.

A few of the cars that are on my wish list:

Holy crap. At this point in time, nearly my entire list of modern cars that I want is dominated by American cars. And this is just the beginning - GM, Ford, and Chrysler all have a great deal more expansion planned.

What do you think? Is there a segment that you think an American car wil never be able to compete in?

Sparf > pauljones 08/05/2013 at 16:01

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Kei cars?

PelicanHazard > pauljones 08/05/2013 at 16:02

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Halo supercars, maybe. I don't know of an American offering that can compete with the Veyron, LaFerrari, P1 and company. EDIT: SSC and their Ultimate Aero maybe, but it doesn't seem to have the same desirability as the others.

Outside of that (say in the realm of 85% of the population), perhaps out-of-the-box tough-roaders? I don't know anyone who, given the choice, wouldn't pick a Range Rover or Discovery 4 over anything else.

Sparf > PelicanHazard 08/05/2013 at 16:04

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What about the Hennessey Venom GT and SSC Aero, among others?

yourunclejim > pauljones 08/05/2013 at 16:04

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2-door hot hatches

KnowsAboutCars > pauljones 08/05/2013 at 16:07

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Small wagons. (Not that they would sell that well in the US anyway.)

dogisbadob > pauljones 08/05/2013 at 16:07

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But as always, they're the best at giving 90%. Look at what GM has done with the Holdens over here. The Caprice is only sold to fleets; the SS is only available with an automatic in top-spec; it's as if GM WANTS them to fail! Ford never even bothered to bring us the Falcon; too bad because it would be a great Panther replacement instead of the bloated FWD Taurass. Chrysler couldn't just rebadge a Giulietta. No, they had to fatten it up and shit to make the Dart.

GM has also butchered the Cruze. We still don't get the hatchback and wagon, and the diesel is only available in top-spec automatic.

We've only made ONE postwar V12 (the double Duratec from when Ford owned Aston Martin), and we STILL can't get 100 hp/L from a normally aspirated engine. The 2ZZ from the Pontiac Vibe doesn't count because it's Toyota/Yamaha.

We still have yet to make a credible ultra luxury sedan (think Lexus LS, S-class, 7-series)

Yeah we've made some progress, but there is still a loooooooooong way to go.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > pauljones 08/05/2013 at 16:07

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Stripped-down offroader, perhaps? Granted, it's a small field to begin with, but as much as US safety regs and other issues lead our markets to eschew stripped down cars to a degree across the board, I don't know what this country's offerings in that respect really amount to. The Wrangler is the closest shot of several, but when its at full modern weight with the ability to take itself out with a jet of water from a too-deep puddle too fast, you'll forgive the tendency to say it's not really all it could be, particularly not in a spirit of being stripped down.

I admit that light off-roaders are limited worldwide, and many are legacy platforms with no clear replacement, but hey, it would be nice if one could have here a small toy along the lines of a Bronco II or Geo Tracker without being a plastic-larded mom-mobile.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > PelicanHazard 08/05/2013 at 16:07

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Hennessy Venom, SSC Ultimate Aero, Saleen S7TT, Jeep Wrangler

pauljones > PelicanHazard 08/05/2013 at 16:07

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Oh? Here are a few:

SonorousSpeedJoe > pauljones 08/05/2013 at 16:07

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There hasn't been a Miata/BRZ fighter in the market since the Sky & Solstice Kappa cars were canned, but I don't doubt that the Big 3 could produce a real contender - they've really been on a roll.

pauljones > Sparf 08/05/2013 at 16:08

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There are American offerings that are just about there:

hike > PelicanHazard 08/05/2013 at 16:10

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I think that Ford, GM, and especially Chrysler (Fiat partnership) would be able to compete if they had the resources. All three have the technology and the ability to, but none of them really have the money. The only real shortcoming if they decided to go insane and spend all their money would be what to name the thing.

hike > yourunclejim 08/05/2013 at 16:10

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Well Ford makes one, they just don't sell it here. Americans just love 5 doors. Okay, well more than 3 doors.

pauljones > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 08/05/2013 at 16:11

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Really? Jeep is the absolute king of that segment - the most de-contented, rough-and-tumble off-roader you can buy right now is a stripper Jeep Wrangler. And even in their most basic form, they'll master most off-road trails.

PelicanHazard > PelicanHazard 08/05/2013 at 16:11

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Let me think about what I'd want...

City car runabout: FIAT 500.

Subcompact jack-of-all-trades: Ford Fiesta

Subcompact EV/Green: FIAT 500e

Compact general purpose car: Dodge Dart

Compact EV/Green: Chevrolet Volt

Midsize: Ford Fusion

Midsize EV/Green: Ford Fusion Energi

Full size non-luxury: Chevrolet Impala

Full size EV/Green: Tesla Model S

Compact luxury: Cadillac ATS

Midsize luxury: Mercedes E-class

Full size luxury: Cadillac XTS

Station Wagon: BMW 328d xDrive

Small truck: FIAT Strada

Midsize truck: Ford Ranger

Fullsize truck: Ram 1500

Honorable mentions for fun cars: Ford Raptor, Land Rover Discovery 4, Scion FR-S

So from the 'regular use' categories, 11 of 16 cars that I desire are American. Not bad, USA, not bad.

Sparf > pauljones 08/05/2013 at 16:11

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I'm fairly sure it doesn't meet the strict regulations a car must follow to be classified as a kei car. Chief among those are the exterior measurements and engine displacement.

For Sweden > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 08/05/2013 at 16:13

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Dat Wrangler

For Sweden > pauljones 08/05/2013 at 16:14

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Small pickups.

PelicanHazard > Sparf 08/05/2013 at 16:14

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I forgot all of them except the SSC Aero at the last second.

pauljones > yourunclejim 08/05/2013 at 16:14

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I'm sorry, the Ford Fiesta ST can't hear you over the sound of how awesome it is.

PelicanHazard > pauljones 08/05/2013 at 16:16

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I need to work some more sudokus or something. I forgot about all of those except spontaneously recalling SSC. I should also look over their figures again, I though the ZR1 would be eaten alive by the P1 until I compared the numbers.

Decay buys too many beaters > pauljones 08/05/2013 at 16:16

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Small-Midsize Trucks.

Rally-inspired AWD wagons.

hollanddjw 1 > hike 08/05/2013 at 16:19

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Ford EUROPE makes more than one.

PelicanHazard > Decay buys too many beaters 08/05/2013 at 16:20

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This exists.

It's just not sold in North America.

Who needs sway bars anyway > PelicanHazard 08/05/2013 at 16:21

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Really, out of the box off-Roaders? If I am shooting for off-road capabilities, I would take a Jeep over a RR or defender ANY day. That and the range rover isn't a tough roader. I appreciate its off road capabilities but realistically doing any extreme 4-wheeling in a $100000 SUV is crazy, never mind trying to fix something in the woods on one of them! I believe it was Matt Farah that told the story of how when Top gear Off road tested the New range rover they went through 14 sets of wheels!

EDIT: Sorry 11 sets of wheels: Top gear test

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

The Opponaut formerly known as MattP123 > pauljones 08/05/2013 at 16:23

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Utes? They used to with the ElCamino, Ranchero, and that other thing Chrysler put out in the 80s that probably wasn't a real Chrysler anyways. It's not so much that they can't, but for some reason they choose not to compete.

pauljones > dogisbadob 08/05/2013 at 16:24

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Really?

The credible ultra-lux sedan is coming - Cadillac will be showing it off shortly. We haven't made a V12 because quite frankly, we haven't needed to. Note that Japan also hasn't made a serious V12 in.... forever. Note that most major European makes put out only a handful of V12s in the past 15 years, and they have pretty much signed the death warrant for them. The whole power/liter ratio is something that's actually comparatively meaningless in real life, and while I'm not absolutely sure, I'd guess that an American engine can and/or does meet that standard.

As for the SS and the Caprice, your reasoning is precisely backwards: GM does want them to succeed. They want to make as much money as they can on them, and that's why they're only offered with an automatic. I don't know where you've been lately, but the take rate on manuals in the United States is virtually non-existent, and certainly not enough for GM to recoup the costs of offering one on an already limited-production car. Trust me, while we few enthusiasts may want one with a manual, as a rule, we enthusiasts rarely put our money where our mouth is and buy a new car. GM does want the SS to succeed, and they have a better idea of the market than a handful of armchair analysts like us.

As for the Cruze, GM absolutely did not butcher it. The Cruze is the best-selling American car, is it not? It's a great car that's well-made, handles great for what it is, is affordable and reliable, and is impressively efficient. You're right, they don't offer the wagon and the hatch here, and there's a reason for that: like manual transmissions, the take rate is so low that it doesn't cover the costs of certifying the other body styles. GM very much wants their cars to succeed, and that's why they won't waste their money or ruin the car's chance at success by trying to sell things that we won't buy.

And the Dart? Go try one.

pauljones > Decay buys too many beaters 08/05/2013 at 16:26

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Well, the new Chevrolet Colorado being introduced next year as part of the domestic product onslaught will change that first one. As for the second, well, you're probably right about that. There's just no real market for one outside of a tiny, core group of enthusiasts. And most of those enthusiasts would rather buy used in my experience.

Decay buys too many beaters > PelicanHazard 08/05/2013 at 16:27

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But since I live in the US, and there are no American companies competing in the segment, Toyota is pretty much the only game in town. Which is a really bad call on Ford/GM's part as I see TONS of Tacomas on the road.

pauljones > The Opponaut formerly known as MattP123 08/05/2013 at 16:28

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They simply don't sell - even GM and Ford's Australian division have been seeing a decline in ute sales. And if that's happening in Australia of all place, what do you think the take rate would be in the US? And besides, that notwithstanding, GM and Ford are the only ones to make competitive utes to begin with anymore.

pauljones > For Sweden 08/05/2013 at 16:29

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Well, small is a relative term these days, but GM has already indicated the imminent arrival of the much-upgraded new Chevrolet Colorado. And you know something? I don't think that any manufacturer that sells in the US produces a small truck, either. After all, the Frontier and the Tacoma are anything but small.

Who needs sway bars anyway > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 08/05/2013 at 16:30

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Name one other striped and cheep off roader in the WORLD that would do better than the current gen Wrangler JK in the woods, desert, mud ,snow anything. Name one.....

pauljones > KnowsAboutCars 08/05/2013 at 16:31

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I think you more or less answered your own question there, from the standpoint that they simply don't sell here.

Decay buys too many beaters > pauljones 08/05/2013 at 16:31

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Tiny? While I do see most people buying used due to financial reasons, the WRX/STI is probably the second most common car in my area behind the Prius.

I guess it would be quite difficult to enter into the Rallyesque market, but someone has got to fill in the hole being left by the departing Evo. So now is as good a time as ever.

pauljones > Decay buys too many beaters 08/05/2013 at 16:33

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Yes, tiny. Go look at the annual sales rate for Subaru NA. Then compare it to the annual sales rate of the F-150, Camry, Cruze, etc. And then realize that the WRX/STI only makes up a small portion of Subaru NA's sales.

desertdog5051 > pauljones 08/05/2013 at 16:34

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I can't find any angle on the new Fusion I don't like.
Don't know if I posted this story before. I parked near one at a Walgreens. It had really dark tinted windows. I kept walking around it, looking at the details. Finally, the drivers window cracked and this woman says "If you don't go away, I am going to call 911."
I did not know there was anybody inside of it.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > pauljones 08/05/2013 at 16:35

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Yes, really. The Wrangler of today is usually north of 4000lb even in the short wheelbase, if what I've been able to dig up is any guide - a decade ago it was scant change over 3000. Another decade further back and it was lighter still, lighter than other off-road semi-lightweight challengers like the Defender. I will not question its capability in general, but a lightweight it is no longer, not even remotely.

It has not pushed itself out of the category by loss of capability (typical changes in other marques: going to unibody, lowered ride), but it most definitely has explored the issue of weight. If one is going to have a heavy vehicle (stripped down), the Defender can or could in some respects be obtained *very* stripped down, including non-electronic diesel options, extra filtration, and essentially blank interior under Ford's ownership, and was available in a stable with diesel 4wd heavy-duty Ford Rangers through Ford's special project vehicle division and other channels. Not in this country, of course, and they've since taken some little steps back, but I'd argue those two vehicles as-offered elsewhere where the epitome of the sort of thing the Wrangler is supposed to be. And if being stripped down is not an area it can contend in any better than weight, what then?

Let's fall back to examples of light offroading that one used to have available: the 90's Suzuki Sidekick and the Bronco II. Say what you will about either, but there is a number that should speak for itself in either case: curb weights of ~2300lb and ~3200lb. Anything I'd like to think of as a light off-roader should not weigh a thousand pounds in excess of that - I consider the Bronco II heavy for what it is. This is not even touching on the electrics complexity of the modern Wrangler. The CJ5 was all of about 60% the weight of a modern Wrangler - scant change more than the Sidekick.

This is all to say, the Wrangler may be the standard for its market in the US (and some other areas), but it's not the most stripped down available, and has rather lost its way in some regards. Picture this - the world market Defender 90, designed originally as the Series I to (among other things )provide a larger option in comparison to the contemporary Jeep (and since enlarged (!)), now sees the Jeep weighing 10%- 20% more, with longer hood and more abjectly misused space.

Sorry, Jeep, but no.

Who needs sway bars anyway > pauljones 08/05/2013 at 16:38

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I have to completely agree with you. I am consistently amazed at how much and how fast american cars have turned around in the past 5 years. From the Corvette to the Focus to the charger and the dart. I find myself being drawn from my classic car slumber to actually wanting to buy a newer car. I have a number of friends that have bought 2 darts, a charger, and focus st and an escape and they cant stop raving about how nice the cars are. I know Cadillac is coming out with their big sedan pretty soon but until they do I don't think there is a 7 series/ S-class fighter yet. I would like to see something from Lincoln in this area too and personally I would love them to buy the rights to the Fisker and use that as a basis. Ford resources with Fiskers design would be an EPIC combination.

Quattro-luvr, Powered by Datsun & Stinger > pauljones 08/05/2013 at 16:39

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I had dinner with a friend over the weekend. We got on the topic of cars and he made a snide comment about Ford.

So I picked up the torch and proceeded to inform him about how great their new products are. His comment was, sure they look good but what about durability? Now, he's not really in the know about cars and I wasn't going to crucify him for him not being up on stats. But he's a big Toyota fan boy. I really wanted to say, "Have you forgotten the recall and PR nightmare they've just gone through?". He's got a Highlander that blew the head bolts at 70k miles. My Passat never did anything that drastic and VW has a bad rap.

I find it very interesting that knowledge about cars by the general public is always 4-5 years behind where cars actually are.

I think my wife's next car will be a Fusion or Edge. Not sure which.

I'd like to get an ATS if they come out with a V version. OK, I'll be a little more picky. I really want a wagon version. My hatchback is great, but I'd really like a little more room in the truck area and a factory roof rack. And the C7? That is the first Corvette I've gone nuts about since the first time I saw a C3.

pauljones > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 08/05/2013 at 16:45

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Name another car in the US market right now that can beat the Wrangler in its niche. Go for it.

Sure, you could get a lighter Wrangler in the past, or a giant Bronco II or little Suzuki Sidekick. You could get a lot of cool stuff in the past that you can't get today. Safety regulations, fuel economy regulations, and market demand for creature comforts have all had an irreversible impact on automobile size. But, then, we're not talking about the glory days - we're talking about what's on sale right here and right now.

The Series 1 isn't made any more, and hasn't been made since 1958. Even when it was made, it was abjectly larger, heavier, and less capable off-road than a contemporary Jeep CJ. The Series I's descendent, the Land Rover Defender, is almost the exact same size as the Wrangler. Also, it uses all the same "electronic complexities" that the new Wrangler does. It's just a progression of technology.

If you hate all of that, I can certainly understand - but in all honesty, name one vehicle in the US market that you can buy new right now that will beat the Wrangler in its niche.

pianomanzero > pauljones 08/05/2013 at 16:47

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Credit where credit is due, most certainly; American car companies have made some great strides in the past decade.

Again, credit where credit is due, I don't think our big three would be anywhere near where they are without help from their European divisions or a European buyer.

Like I said, big strides have been made (and that makes me happy because the more competent players there are in the market as a whole, the more competition will spur quality and innovation all around), but I think the big three still have a distance to go (and that's coming from a long-time Ford guy who's tickled pink at the ST Focus/Fiesta and the likes).

I'm a car lover in general and I would like to see as much success as possible, both at home in North America and abroad, because awesomeness will ensue all around.

So keep it up, big three.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Who needs sway bars anyway 08/05/2013 at 16:48

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Situation: anywhere the current Wrangler is too heavy to push through without giant tires, and requires a smaller vehicle overall than that would permit.

Solution: many, many countries' locally produced 4-wheel drives, but as you ask, I will just name one. The Mahindra Thar. It is a fucking CJ3, more or less. That... is the problem.

Who needs sway bars anyway > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 08/05/2013 at 16:49

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I actually agree with you here, in terms of a Lightweight, due to modern regulations and other consumerism nonsense the lightweight has been taken from the equation. that's why I wouldn't buy a new wrangler I would buy an older one. You really can compare today's SUV's with the like of the bronco II or the CJ5 or the little Suzuki because the regulations put forth have ruined the size and the market which has been ruined by the FLOOD of mall crawlers and sorer moms has taken away from the enthusiast. But in terms of today's market, the closest comparisons that you can make are with the land rover defender which is 15- 20k more and is just as heavy. or the Euro/AU marker Ford ranger which is no Slim Jim itself and I have no grounds for comparison in the 4WD area. What it boils down to is if you want a decent lightweight off roader that you can beat on repair and use on the trail, you have to buy used. Which my friend is why I drive a 99' Jeep Cherokee. lightweight, tough, cheap, up gradable, and the finest example of an every man's off roader that was ever made.

Who needs sway bars anyway > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 08/05/2013 at 16:54

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See my other response, and while I agree with you, something like that couldn't be sold in america or Europe today due to safety regulations. and like you said its basically a CJ3 a 50 year old american design! and as far as locally produced 4wd drive is concerned america may not produce a mass marker lightweight, there are a huge number of small time manufacturer that make small lightweight stripped off roaders for recreational use.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > pauljones 08/05/2013 at 17:06

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My point was *precisely* that the US market qualification is the problem. Traditions best represented in vehicles like the ones I cited that died off in this country, but live on elsewhere. Sure, you're absolutely correct that in the US market, it's Wrangler or pound sand, but that isn't the case elsewhere. It simply isn't. You may also be thinking of the "Big Bronco", the Bronco II I cite was a quite small vehicle on the Ranger platform and not the full-sized F-series, but that's a minor nod.

The Series 1 isn't made any more...it was abjectly larger ( yes ), heavier(though less than you might think - aluminum!), and less capable off-road than a contemporary Jeep CJ(arguable).

I'ma let you finish, but the halcyon glory days of that CJ and the Series I are not the point. Not even remotely. My point was that in the past 10 years, the CJ has *suddenly* leapfrogged its oldest rival in bloat, to such an extent that the Old Way re: weight has become *reversed*. *Even with modern bloat taking place there as well*.

I understand that you think it's unfair to bring into discussion other markets than the US ones, but I'll take you up that not addressing that directly leaves it an open question. If the US vehicle is truly the world-beater, it should be able to do so, well, elsewhere in the world. There are very obvious reasons it can't (local market domestic advantages, different tastes, and most importantly safety), but I think it's lost its previous gold standard status even then. If the gold standard is a Jeep and you can afford one, you should get one, but instead somebody who might even in the 90s have imported a Wrangler is importing something else, and that's a terrible state of affairs. I detest the thought of the modern Range-Rover or modern LandCruiser as the gold standard for He Who Wishes Not To Be A 4wd Plebe In His Poor Country.

I'd agree that for striking a balance between luxury, capability, and cost, it does very, very well. However, I'd like it to be something more... something more by being something less.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Who needs sway bars anyway 08/05/2013 at 17:11

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If you see where I've been going in general, though, you know: It's not about whether you can buy a CJ3 in all but name. It's about whether you can buy a vehicle that even pretends to be a CJ3. Modern safety standards, okay, but where in the great fuck did the Wrangler find 800lb+ to pack on in the last ten years? The last one had decentish crash behavior for what it was, certainly not failing. It had airbags, pedestrian-safe bumpers... what happened? 800lb of sound deadening, 800lb of electronics and assorted bullcrap, what? If it were serious about being a worthy successor to the CJ7, even, we wouldn't have to ask.

pauljones > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 08/05/2013 at 17:14

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That's... nice, but the implication of new and US market were made in the original post, so I'm not sure what the issue with that qualification is. In terms of what's actually produced right now, the Wrangler is the best that there is. And a weight or not, a properly equipped new Wrangler is more than happy to take on its elder brethren, and quite successfully at that. Take a look into the testing that Jeep puts the Wrangler through; I understand that after applying the term "Trail-Rated" to the likes of the Compass, there is some inherent dubiousness to hearing that, but they haven't lost their way with the Wrangler, and they still subject it to the most punishing tests of almost any automobile produced today.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > pauljones 08/05/2013 at 17:38

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New was made, and I addressed the issue on those terms. US market appears nowhere in the original post except by implication: "what I'd like my next car to be". Maybe it's wiser to not refer to those models currently under the dog in the manger, but I thought highlighting it as a monopoly through safety regs and inertia would illustrate how it stands from my perspective. I personally would like to at least think about wanting a car as was sold here in the past and can be bought elsewhere, but there isn't one unless it's the Jeep, and for my preferred qualities, the Jeep ain't it. Not anymore. Weight and compactness to me are everything, and I'm not being served.

The fact that I had to refer to defunct models to define a genre I'd say is a statement on how poorly served it is (at least here), but a genre it is, and a genre I'd like it to remain. I think from a practical standpoint, it's a more serious issue to raise than whether there's an American kei truck, because America does not have a kei truck tradition. What sold the original CJ, though, wasn't just the capability...

I made the point of mentioning that the trail ability is the one regard in which the Wrangler still holds court above most if not all of its peers, but there's a problem. I freely admit it's a veritable miracle that it does as well or better than its predecessors, but there are different ways to reach the same goals. I remain duly impressed that the fat guy is a better athlete than his scrawny friends, but he treads more heavily; he doesn't, well, have the Miata-like grace on the trail of something small and sprightly (he says, as the metaphor gives up being a metaphor).

All that is to say, miraculous it may be that the new Wrangler is safer, more quiet, and more refined than it used to be while remaining capable. But... I didn't want any of that, and the game isn't something I want to play after all the rules have changed. I want something that rattles... just a bit. I like vehicles that I can rock on their wheels or right with the natives... just a bit. I want something that people have to pack into... just a bit, because the old trail goes through some tight trees and the old truck, well, it certainly won't fit. I want something that jumps over the rock... not crawls over it at a surprising rate of speed. I want something that grabs the soft dirt on the crest of the hill just so, pulling a little bit as it scrambles. Not plows through, all He-Man and blazing its own trail.

Sorry, Jeep. Impressive trails though they may be, they're not the ones I like. My antique Landy, fat enough in its day at ~2600lb, will take me to them well enough for now, but Jeep doesn't want to, at least not without an extra 3/4 of a ton along for the ride. That... isn't special. It isn't private in the same way.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > Who needs sway bars anyway 08/05/2013 at 17:43

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To be fair those were low profile street tires so that's an unfair comparison. If they were A/T's or M/T's I doubt that they would have had blowouts. In terms of field repair, new Jeeps with all their electronics are just has hard to repair. I've seen plenty of JK's stranded due to some electronic fault (caused by the owner doing something stupid of course).

You also under estimate Land Rover owners level of crazy. (funny enough he didn't have any blow outs).

Who needs sway bars anyway > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 08/05/2013 at 18:30

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I think were are basically on the same page. Every time I get behind the JK I have to ask myself "What the fuck?". It boggles my mind. But at the same time I ask myself the same question about almost every car. From the f-150 to the 3-series BMW , hell every BMW, to the VW golf and the Honda Civic. Everything is at least 500lb's more than it used to be 10-12 years ago, and the weight comparison gets even worse if you go back 25 years. Look at the difference between the e30 and the lastest 3 series or the MK1 golf and the new one. The are MASSIVE in comparison. I kinda lost all hope with the introduction of the new Cherokee. There was nothing wrong with the old XJ, hell even the liberty wasn't bad in comparison. But somewhere between market tests with 25yo girls and government safety standards the elements of what a simple SUV should be have been lost. I think where our point of view may differ is while it is great that in India they can still buy an CJ5 knock off ( after looking at it more I think its more CJ5 than CJ3) where are they going to be in 10 years when they have the same safety regulations to adhere to or the same fuel emission regulations. What it boils down to is in a country like Modern America or Modern Britain the choices for simple small lightweight off-roading (let alone motoring in general) are naught and when it comes down to it the only real options are the Wrangler JK and the Defender both bogged down by industry standards and market tests. Guys like us will always go for the smaller simpler option like the Series II defender or the Jeep Cherokee. Hell I am looking for a commuter car now and the two cars I am trying to decide between is a 65' ford Falcon Wagon and a Late 80's Alfa Milano verde!!!

PelicanHazard > Decay buys too many beaters 08/05/2013 at 18:43

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I'm with you there, GM and Ford could have definitely boosted their profits had they not discontinued their small trucks.

Ramblin Rover - The Vivisector of Solihull > Who needs sway bars anyway 08/05/2013 at 18:49

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See, while I think the Defender jumped the shark with weight as well, it didn't jump the shark as much. Hence my pointing out in posts to pauljones that the Defender now is where the Wrangler was 10 years ago re: lard. Not in a good place, but not, oh, in the two-ton+ range. I can't get one new in this country, of course, and it'd be insanely expensive if I could...

I may have as a commuter some time in the next year a '61-'63 Falcon Ranchero with a Rover V-8 swap. Because frankly, light cars are a boon, and on that front the modern car market can GFI.

TylerJ > pauljones 08/05/2013 at 20:06

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RWD hot hatches.

PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power > pauljones 08/05/2013 at 20:27

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one segment does exsist. JDM

where's my reward?

M54B30 > pauljones 08/05/2013 at 22:03

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Do we have a super-lux car that competes with Rolls Royce or Bentley? We don't really have a super car alone the lines of Ferrari or Porsche GT3. I mean, sure we have the Corvette but it only competes with the "well, it's half price" disclaimer. We have niche cars (Hennessey whatever and so on). I dunno. I wish Cadillac would build the Ciel concept and compete with Rolls Royce and Bentley.

bobkustofawitshz > pauljones 08/05/2013 at 22:09

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"barring uber-luxury cars like Bentley and Rolls-Royce"

There. You just answered your own question. Nailed it, actually. Big, RWD, uber-luxury cars are what America was once known for. In it's heyday, Cadillac could legitimately claim the title Standard of the World . The hand-built 1957-58 Eldorado Brougham was one of the most technologically advanced cars of its time, and more expensive than a Rolls-Royce.

It had fins. And suicide doors. Buyers had a choice of 44(!) full leather interior and trim combinations. Its '59 successor was, IMHO, one of the most beautiful designs ever to come out of an American automaker. There was no mistaking what this was.

And lest we forget that other once-great American luxury brand, Lincoln, I present my personal favorite: the '60's Continental.

John Kennedy rode in one that fateful day in 1963. I can't imagine the leader of the free world riding around in anything Lincoln makes today.

And I refuse to believe this type of car wouldn't sell. It's not like the unicorns that wagons and small trucks have become. Cruising the Main Line, it seems like every 5th car is an S-class, 7-series or A8. Considerably more exclusive, but still selling, are the Bentleys and occasional Rolls-Royces. Make no mistake, there IS a market for big luxury cars. But buyers in this segment demand excellence in every regard - the best or nothing. There can be no compromises. I want to buy a big American luxury car, but I am forced to shop the expensive-to-maintain and oft-unreliable Germans, because this is a segment that American manufacturers have flat-out refused to compete in. And that makes me sad.

I'm eagerly awaiting the new Cadillac flagship, which I think is the last piece needed to make the brand a true competitor on the world stage again. I'm still holding out hope for that RR competitor someday. As for Lincoln, they have quite a history, and FoMoCo. has one hell of an engine in that Coyote 5.0, yet the brand continues to flounder as Ford has chosen to re-skin Fords rather than make the necessary investment to get it back on track.

I'll never say there is a segment that American manufacturers can't compete in, but this is one in which they won't . I can only hope that changes. Time will tell.

The Devil Drives a Mustang (Rotary Pending) > pauljones 08/05/2013 at 22:25

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I commend you on your enthusiasm for American cars, but nothing that you posted makes me jump up and say "I MUST have that!!!" I am at a point in my life where I am perfectly happy with my Japanese beauties. I see other cars on here, and I think "gee they are nice, but I couldn't imagine trading my car for that".

In direct answer to your question: No, there is no segment that US cars can't compete in, but there are currently no cars that the US car companies could sell to me personally. I have my own eccentric preferences.

Sorry, I have tried American cars and they just don't feel right to me. I prefer Japanese cars, and I am sticking to it. Now, a few pictures of my three girls. Forgive my lack of cleanliness, it's not my strong suit. And if you look close you can see my one experiment in American cars peeking behind the RX-7.

amnesiak > pauljones 08/05/2013 at 22:36

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I think Subaru's sales say otherwise... I was going to say small AWD cars for those of us that like to ski and do real outdoors stuff but don't want an SUV.

pauljones > amnesiak 08/05/2013 at 23:02

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As I said to another commenter elsewhere - go check the annual sales numbers for Subaru NA. Then compare them against the annual sales numbers of the F-150, Camry, or Cruze.

amnesiak > pauljones 08/05/2013 at 23:10

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The F-150, Camry and Cruze aren't small AWD cars. Huh?

In a Mini; let them mock me as My Mini Countryman is higher than you > pauljones 08/05/2013 at 23:50

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Changesonmyminda2323 > Ramblin Rover - The Vivisector of Solihull 08/06/2013 at 01:06

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Go for the Ranchero! Picked up a '64 earlier this year and it's a blast.

Changesonmyminda2323 > bobkustofawitshz 08/06/2013 at 01:25

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I've been thinking this for a while, but the saving grace for Lincoln would be the resurgence of a luxury halo car. People have forgotten about Lincoln. There is room in the American market for a semi hand-built ultra luxury vehicle, a well-designed piece of rolling art that will stop pedestrians in their tracks. It would be a spiritual successor to the Continental Mark II, being of the same importance the Eldorado Brougham was to Cadillac.

There is truly nothing available from American manufacturers in the $80K+ pure luxury car range. A relaunch of Lincoln as the purveyor of classic American luxury not only makes sense, I believe it's the only option. Lincoln has never, and will never, be Ford's BMW. It needs to be Ford's cutthroat attempt at a Bentley type vehicle.

This type of vehicle would capture the heritage of the Lincoln brand and reposition it as the American competitor to Europe's finest.

webmonkees > pauljones 08/06/2013 at 06:04

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VW, Peugeot, Subaru and several others make small pickups.. Just not worth certifying and importing.

Maybe we're better off in some cases.

pauljones > amnesiak 08/06/2013 at 06:40

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You must have missed the part where we were talking about sales numbers throughout the past four comments, and how Subaru NA's comparatively tiny combined model sales number pales into comparison to single-model sales from other manufacturers, thus indicating that the market for small wagons in the US isn't particularly large.

bobkustofawitshz > Changesonmyminda2323 08/06/2013 at 08:03

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I wish I could recommend this 1000 times.
Well said.

amnesiak > pauljones 08/06/2013 at 12:18

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Subaru sold 40,000 imprezas through May, compared to 33,000 Mustangs and 35,000 camaros. I'm sure you would consider Pony cars a market, so why isn't there any competition for an impreza outside of an A3 - almost 2x the price? I'm guessing US manufacturers don't compete because they can't. I'd love more of a choice in that market and I'd be willing to bet consumers would buy AWD options of many existing cars.

hobo rubber fire > pauljones 08/06/2013 at 12:30

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While I think American car companies have stepped up their games in recent years, they do not (in my opinion) lead or come anywhere close to the lead of any segments of the auto market. The possible exception possibly being the jeep wrangler segment.

There are more capable, more interesting, better designed, better looking options on offer by Europe, Japan, and Korea in every single segment. The Corvette is in the discussion because it is priced competitively for it's power. But compare it to a similarly powered Porsche, Jag, Nissan, Merc, BMW, etc and it is a plastic bin.

I'm not anti-American, but the best cars are not American. And the best cars by American companies are rarely sold in the U.S.

pauljones > amnesiak 08/06/2013 at 12:47

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That's fantastic. Unfortunately, Deflecting the question and re-framing the argument doesn't mean that you've won the debate. Now, once again, as a test of reading comprehension, sum up the annual total of Subaru NA's sales for all models, not just for the Impreza. Then compare it to the annual total of a single vehicle from another manufacturer, like, say, the F-150, Camry, or Cruze.

Then compare those two numbers. Tell me how big you think Subaru's market share is at that point in time.

While you're at it, leave out the random crap like pony cars that have nothing in particular to do with the discussion.

But if you want to get into the possibility of AWD drive choice, have you actually gone through and thought about just how many AWD offerings are on the market? 3/4 or more of the models that GM, Ford, and Chrysler sell in NA are available with AWD. All Audis sold in the US are available with FWD. Almost all Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Porsche, and Jaguar models sold in NA are available with AWD. Something on the order of half of the products sold by the likes of Honda, Toyota, and Nissan are available with AWD. There's plenty of options for AWD out there, regardless of your price range.

amnesiak > pauljones 08/06/2013 at 13:31

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Really? I don't understand what you're doing here. Your original comment is this:

Put simply, in nearly every category of car that you would care to think of (barring uber-luxury cars like Bentley and Rolls-Royce), there is an American offering that is as good or better than anything else in the segment.

I said 'small awd wagons, for those of us that don't want an SUV.' Your response was to compare it to the best-selling models of a few manufacturers. My response to you was pointing out that it's probably about the same size market as pony cars, if there were anyone else in it that wasn't subaru. The American marques would be perfect for this segment. I own an e46 and I would love to get another BMW, but the 328xi is double the price of an impreza, putting it out of that segment.

Basically, you posited a statement - that there's an American car in nearly every category that one would care to think of better than a competitor. When I pointed out a segment where that wasn't true, you're talking about completely unrelated types of cars. I brought up Pony car sales as it's probably a comparable category, sales wise.

Your question wasn't "Compare a whole brand's sales to the best selling models of certain marques." Subaru's whole sales figure has little relevance. Like I said, they sold 40,000 Imprezas through may - the very segment I'm talking about. I wouldn't buy an F-150, Cruze, or Camry instead of an Impreza, nor a Mustang or Camaro. If you're writing off that segment as irrelevant then you've got to write off the Pony car segment as irrelevant, because with some American competition it's reasonable to expect the market might double for small AWD cars, bringing it up to about Pony Car range.

What does random crap about F-150s and Camrys have to do with this conversation - about a small AWD wagon?

I'm not talking about every model, so the number of models offered in AWD are irrelevant. I'm not in the market for a truck or SUV or crossover or big sedan with AWD. Give me a fiesta, a focus, a sonic, whatever in AWD. If they have so many trim levels of those cars why aren't they offering AWD versions? I have a kid, I live in the city, and I ski 70+ days a year. Maximum space, small footprint, decent gas mileage and AWD are important to me. There are lots of people in Seattle, Denver, Portland, Salt Lake and other metro areas that have similar requirements.

You put a Tesla in there. I freaking love the Tesla and I would 100% agree there's nothing that can beat it. However, that's a way, way smaller market then what I'm talking about here. The total sales of Tesla as a company pale in comparison to Subaru NA, much less F-150s etc, so why would you put a Tesla as an example?

I don't understand your logic. I thought you were genuinely asking about segments that the US manufacturers didn't or couldn't compete in, and I named one that I saw - I would love to see more options in that segment.

therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary > pauljones 08/06/2013 at 13:35

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I don't think any of these, except maybe the Viper, really compete with the big halo cars. Most of the cars use far too many 'mundane' parts to have the blast of special that comes with the Veyron, Koenigseggs, LaFerrari, the P1 or Paganis. They may keep up performance-wise, but so to does the GT-R, and I wouldn't put those up there with the grand daddy hyper/super/über cars. The ubiquity of the LS somehow cheapens the Corvette in my min, not saying it's logical but it's true. The Viper, I think, is close to hanging with the Italians and the GT40 was pretty close as well, but now it's gone.

Another niche the Americans don't compete in, or at least I can't think of one of the top of my head, is track toys a la BAC Mono or the KTM Xbow (or however they've decided to spell it). Or perhaps as well, the small 'cool' car, like the MINI and the Fiat 500. Mind you, I don't know if that's a segment quite yet, but I can see it starting as many city dwellers that don't care about cars still care about aesthetics and a 'sporty' feel.

pauljones > amnesiak 08/06/2013 at 13:37

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I've noticed that you didn't understand the basic thread of the conversation; and after all this time, you're still not on the same page. At this point, I'm not sure what else I can do to help you understand, so good luck and let's just call it a day.

The Opponaut formerly known as MattP123 > pauljones 08/07/2013 at 22:49

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Whatever the fuck segment this monstrosity falls into. I know this was a few days ago, but I was unfortunately behind one today and I remembered this article.